Make sure to read Part 1 first.

These questions and theology about the atonement are at the heart of Christianity and are clearly very important to you. What would you say to the Christian who has a general notion of the atonement but who would have a difficult time connecting what you’re talking about to their everyday life?

I think there are very practical applications. Two seem immediate. I think the way we as Evangelicals typically talk about the atonement causes real Trinitarian confusion for folks. They may not phrase it like that, but I’ve seen so many young people who, often even long after they become Christians, who believe that Jesus loves them, but that God the Father really doesn’t. Because of the cross he now kind of has to, but deep down they still think God loathes them. I know Penal Substitutionary theologians have no intent to create a bifurcated Father/Son dynamic in the Trinity, but I think that’s where the logic naturally flows and a lot of people live there emotionally, sometimes for their entire lives as Christians. I believe a relational model takes sin seriously, but has ALL of the Trinity responding in love. To reference a popular song, “And on the cross where Jesus died, the LOVE (not wrath) of God was satisfied.” God has wrath, but more like a parent whose wrath at a child springs from GREAT LOVE, than a judge adjudicating dispassionately in a courtroom.

I also think a relational approach to the Trinity helps to address the “Jesus’ purpose on earth was to save my soul vs. Jesus’ purpose on earth was to heal the world and human relations” debate. Fundamentalism vs. The Social Gospel. In one you see the cross dealing only with an abstract legal/theological reality and in the other you see an aversion to talking about the cross at all and just a focus upon the teachings of Jesus. I think a relational model of the atonement answers that either/or question with a “yes, both/and” answer.

It’s not a primary theme, but throughout the book you hint at the atonement’s implications for justice in our world today. Can you think of a current example where Christ’s death and resurrection are embodied in the work of justice by the Church?

I would say anywhere Christians are doing restorative/reconciliation work in the world would be an example, but particularly efforts around the reconciliation/resolution of conflict or ethnic enmity. I think conflict, be it interpersonal or intercultural, is an example of sin as I discuss it in the book, the turning of outward relationality/mutuality in on the self. I believe that is so ingrained in who we are that only the cross and resurrection can provide the motivation and ability to transcend that choosing for self against the other. That said, I think ministries of mercy (dealing with health, poverty, injustice for example) and evangelism are also driven by a belief in the cross and resurrection as well.

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions Steve. Any last words you’d like to leave for the good folks who will read this on my blog?

Last words? That seems daunting. I guess just to say that I think the Penal Substitution folks are right when they feel we need to have a theology that takes seriously sin and its consequences, but that I believe God’s response is to move toward us in reconciling love. I think it is a mistake when folks that find Penal Substitution to be problematic end up with a fairly humanistic optimism about human nature. We ARE sinners. Newton was right that we’re “wretches.” But, God runs and embraces us, taking on our shame and bringing us home. That’s the beauty of grace, I believe.