5 responses to “judging church”

1. 

   larry eisner

   November 12, 2007 at 11:15 am

   I think it’s a great goal, but how practical is it? I mean, can you really preach to a mass, or can you reach out at different times to different people? I don’t really know, so I’m not making a judgment there…although I do think that my tendency is to skew towards the individual. After all, emergent behavior aside, aren’t all masses created by many individuals? Isn’t this the way to “attack” that goal of having everyone worship God?

   I think it’s a good metric for success… to say “the body was moved towards worship of God by the lesson”. But, as a means to that end, I think you have to view it the other way.

   But that may simply be my own misunderstanding, of either the concept or the whole point of this posting… 🙂

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2. 

   David

   November 13, 2007 at 9:04 am

   Good thoughts Larry. I think the author has in mind our tendency to view all of life through a very individualistic lens. Of course we bring this tendency with us when we worship as a community. The question for me then is, Are we really worshiping as a community or simply as a bunch of individuals who happen to be in the same room.

   The language of Scripture is so often about the community of God. I think the way our culture has formed us makes it tough to really grasp what it means to be a part of that community. Perhaps one way to be submitted to the community of God is to ask questions about what has taken place for the community rather than what has taken place just for me.

   This is brutally hard for me to do. My first tendency is always to ask about my reaction, my needs, my opinions, etc. This quote got me wondering about the possibility to move from that tendency towards a way of thinking and acting that is more concerned with the community I am a part of.

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3. 

   Larry Eisner

   November 13, 2007 at 11:12 pm

   Excellent. I understand things a bit better. Thank you.

   I still wonder (and not to be prickly, but simply to dig deeper than common-blog-rant-level), how this can be “attacked” from the pulpit and church leadership.

   Obviously, there’s an ownership issue, I think. Taking something that is “given” like doses to individuals, makes them react like individuals. But something then, needs to fundamentally change, to make a reactionary change, right? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, so we need to change something.

   But what?

   I don’t claim to know, to be sure. But perhaps it does lie in that ownership principle. That idea of somehow helping, with the community, to create that worship experience (and not just through singing or whatever), but to somehow create, shape, and input into that Sunday experience…

   I dunno. Church 2.0? 🙂

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4. 

   Larry Eisner

   November 13, 2007 at 11:20 pm

   And to add (sorry, I hit submit prior to being fully done) (and I ramble) (and I don’t know when to quit)…

   While I think that there is an “individual choice” to be made to shift one’s view, I think perhaps that it’s a fundamental issue for the church, rather than simply the individual’s attitude. I think the attitude needs to be fostered from “on high” for that to matter to the majority of the masses.

   And perhaps I’m being too flippant about these “masses”. I don’t intend to do so. However, I think in general, that those people that tend to go in, think about the lesson only in terms of their experience, or how that helps them as individuals relate to God (or not)… those people can’t simply break the mold because they’re asked to do so. They’re not mold-breaking people. That’s the core issue anyway!

   So while there is definitely a piece of this that “starts with me”, as does any paradigm shift, I believe the way to truly change the culture is to “plot” that culture in advance, with a targeted, intentional, purposeful, concerted effort towards that goal from those who claim to “run things” within the church.

   And of course, I mean absolutely no disrespect with that “claim to run things” comment, but the truth is that “running things” and “maintaining things” can be viewed as synonymous, when they are truly not. And I think that’s the difficulty of someone in your position as a church leader/pastor. You cannot ever rest. You cannot ever become non-vigilant. You must always stride forward, anticipating your community’s needs and weaknesses so that you may assist them in reaching that goal of a closer relationship with Christ.

   I’ve seen this in my extremely limited role as a high school youth group care group leader. I do not envy your position, but I’m willing to support it in any way that I can!

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5. 

   Larry Eisner

   November 13, 2007 at 11:23 pm

   One more thing: This blog is a good step in this direction, I think.

   It gets me involved. Interacting with my world in a Christian world-view, more often than I sometimes would do otherwise.

   So that’s a community centered experience. I interact with others here to worship through thought, intellect, humor and challenge. I love that. Thanks, David!

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